When Tom Hanks appears on a podcast about being fired by Tom Hanks, there are bound to be some uncomfortable questions. Actor and host Connor Ratliff has spent more than two decades puzzling over what happened between them. But as their conversation begins, Hanks has a few questions of his own: “Do you want to trip me or hug me?” the two-time Oscar winner asks. “Do you want to punch me or kiss me?”

That’s the start of their exchange in the season three finale of Dead Eyes, a podcast created by Ratliff to explore the pathos and humor of humiliation and disappointment. The title comes from a real-life encounter Ratliff had with Hanks back when the ink was still fresh on Ratliff’s drama-school diploma. It was the year 2000, and Ratliff had earned a role in the fifth episode of the HBO World War II miniseries Band of Brothers. It was a bit part, but a colossal deal for a novice performer—made even more thrilling because the episode would be directed by Hanks himself, who was executive producing the series with Steven Spielberg. 

Then, the day before Ratliff was supposed to shoot his scenes, Hanks fired him. The stated reason: Hanks felt Ratliff had “dead eyes.”

What did Ratliff do wrong? What could he have done differently? Does he really have the eyes of a cadaver—or was that shorthand for something else about his audition that cost him the job? 

That’s what he has been trying to figure out for 22 years, with varying degrees of seriousness. Ratliff says it’s “crucial” that people understand he has a sense of humor about all of this: The podcast is not about angrily ruminating on a decades-old slight, or seeking vengeance against the beloved star of Forrest Gump and Saving Private Ryan. 

The charm of Dead Eyes is its relatability. Almost everybody has a tale of rejection that they can never quite shake. “Not everyone has one that is so star-studded,” Ratliff admits to Vanity Fair. “But everybody has some story like, ‘Boy, I really was feeling good and confident. And then I got thrown for a loop.’”

In the exclusive clip above, Hanks tells Ratliff he learned about Dead Eyes from two of his children. “I was aghast,” Hanks says. “When I found out about this from my daughter and my son, I literally said, ‘How bad is it?’… I go right to the cheesy, melodramatic narrative, which is, like, Oh, okay, so this is going to essentially be an ongoing poison-pen letter. But it’s not.” As his kids explained to him, Dead Eyes is actually a funny and heartfelt look at getting knocked down, struggling back to your feet, and moving on.

Now, in an episode that goes live March 10, Hanks shares his own such story (from the set of Big, no less) while finally allowing Ratliff to delve into the notorious incident that gives the podcast its framework. Or, at least, Hanks will explore that moment insofar as he can remember it. That’s something Ratliff worried about as the podcast evolved, and the possibility of actually landing Hanks for an interview became increasingly possible. 

“I was always of the mindset that if he remembers—great, because we’re gonna hear his side of it,” Ratliff says. “If he doesn’t remember, then that’s also great. As long as we can unpack it. What we arrived at in the interview is completely satisfying to me. It was not what I expected. He did not hold back.”

Back in 2000, Ratliff was preparing for his big moment in the sprawling World War II epic when his agent’s assistant called in a panic, saying that Hanks had just seen his audition footage and was thinking about reversing the casting director’s decision to give him the role of Pvt. John Zielinski. The “dead eyes” explanation was an excruciating extra twist of the dagger.

Aspiring actors have to develop a thick skin to persevere through the indignities of the audition circuit, but this—a neutron bomb to the psyche, delivered by one of the most beloved actors on the planet—broke through all of Ratliff’s defenses. Also…“dead eyes”? That’s not exactly constructive criticism. “It definitely didn’t help knowing that I had this, um, problem that I truly couldn’t fix,” Ratliff says. 

And couldn’t someone in the chain of communication have thought to let him down a little easier? “Even the message getting to my agent’s office…” Ratliff says, shaking his head and laughing. “Someone there should have been able to think, Maybe we shouldn’t tell Connor. Just say he has to go and meet with Tom, and then see what happens.”

Instead, “dead eyes” were the words ricocheting around Ratliff’s head as he reauditioned in person for Hanks, whom he recalls being perfectly nice to him in the room. Still, the role he had already been offered was taken away and given to someone else. 

With the podcast, which currently stands at 30 episodes, Ratliff has transformed this moment of awkward heartbreak into a comedic true-crime saga. He has reconstructed the incident like a cold case, interviewing people involved in Band of Brothers, including Adam Sims, who got the role he lost; his own representatives; and even Hanks’s son Colin, who appeared on episode 27 of Dead Eyes in January. Colin noted that one of the fascinating things about Ratliff’s experience is that it’s “the exact opposite” of his father’s reputation. “The story is that he’s the nicest guy in Hollywood. He’s America’s dad, which…don’t get me started on that,” Colin said on the show. “You went through an experience where you had to be fired by the most likable guy in the world, right?”

Ratliff thinks he would have received the news differently if it had come from someone known for being less than warm. “If I’d been up for a James Cameron thing and he was like, ‘I don’t know, you have dead eyes,’ it would’ve hurt me, but I would’ve thought, like, Oh well, James Cameron is tough,” Ratliff says. “If I had been up for, you know, a little role in Eyes Wide Shut and Stanley Kubrick said, ‘You have dead eyes,’ I would’ve been like, In his case, I don’t know if that means I’ve got the part! The classic Kubrick stare is dead eyes.”

Over the years, Ratliff rebuilt his crumbled confidence and kept trying, becoming an improv star with the Upright Citizens Brigade in New York. He tallied countless small roles in commercials and movies while also landing prominent, scene-stealing parts on TV shows such as Search Party, The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel, and Orange Is the New Black.

He made it. He’s a working actor. And that, along with the passage of two decades, is what has softened a painful moment into something he, and others, can actually laugh about.

The Dead Eyes podcast uses the Hanks firing as a framework, but many episodes are about other people’s cringeworthy tales of ego obliteration. Mad Men star Jon Hamm shared a story about an executive who told his agents point-blank that he lacked what it took to be a successful TV actor. Lost cocreator Damon Lindelof delved into his memories of the backlash to that show’s finale. Nicole Byer, Elijah Wood, Seth Rogen, 40-Year-Old Virgin filmmaker Judd Apatow, and Last Jedi writer-director Rian Johnson have all turned up to commiserate with their own tales of epic rejection and public face-planting.

Even Hanks has one to share.

As part of a preview for the upcoming 31st episode, Ratliff offered this story in which Hanks talks about getting kicked out of a screening room by Big director Penny Marshall. The reason: She wanted to spare his feelings as they reviewed footage of him. That was a courtesy not extended to Ratliff later on Band of Brothers.

“I had seen the screen tests. I had seen the wardrobe tests. So I thought I would be watching the daily rushes. And Penny made a beeline to me in the theater,” Hanks tells Ratliff. “‘You can’t be here,’ she says. ‘You don’t get to watch dailies.’”

When he protested, she got even more blunt about why he was unwelcome: “She said, ‘You don’t get to see dailies because in this room we have to talk uncensored. We are going to say terrible things about you. And the lighting. And the props. And the dolly moves. And you! ‘That line is not the line.’ ‘That is a horrible thing.’ ‘I hate this take, I’m not gonna use it.’ ‘His hair looks stupid.’ ‘Why does he have those folds in his neck?’ ‘Why is his voice so squeaky?’ We have to say all these things. And if you’re here to hear them, it’s really going to screw you up.’” 

Unfortunately for Ratliff, he got to hear some of that unfiltered talk. And it did screw him up. It was worse than simply not getting a job; this was an example of actually succeeding, then having it yanked away. “You don’t wanna kill the part of yourself that enjoys looking forward to things, and for a while that was a thing that did feel diminished in me,” Ratliff tells Vanity Fair. “I was like, Nothing’s going to work out for me. You get into a mindset where you’re afraid to look forward to something, because what if it’s a mirage that’s going to vanish?”

Now that he has landed the ultimate interview—Hanks himself—what will become of Ratliff’s “Tom Hanks rejected me” podcast? Ratliff says this isn’t the end.

“One of the nicest compliments that people have paid is, early on in the first season, people started saying, ‘I hope you never get to Tom Hanks because I don’t want the podcast to end,’” Ratliff says. “I think if we continue on, it’ll be different. The Band of Brothers ‘dead eyes’ story will be less of a mystery and more of an origin story.”

To hear where it all began, listen to the very first episode below.

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